Is it Wrong?
Disclaimer: Interesting topic, yet I am going to get the Tznius Police for this one.
“You can look but you can’t touch”. Does this statement apply in our circles? I guess the “our” being vague and broad considering the readers of this site. What I really mean bring up, are men allowed to look? Are ladies allowed to look? Can we look at things but not touch? Can a man look at a sexy female, or a magazine or what have you, without getting into trouble with his wife?
What is your reaction if you found your spouse looking at things that were not so proper for him/her to be looking at? First we need to back up here. At what point are we allowed to look at, for example, the magazines they sell in black bags, when can we take a sneak peak? Are we ever allowed to look, or is that going beyond our religion? I am asking this in regards to what we see that is not hidden. We see ads and billboards that are right in front of us. Scantly clothed, provocative pose, right in middle of time square. You can’t miss it, unless of course your eyes are closed. You see T.V commercials playing all the time, and in the movies, a rated R movie can get you a couple in bed undressed and very busy. So it is not like we do not see it. It is not like we are searching for it and have to un-dig just to get what we think we are looking for. There is plenty in front of us, so what is wrong with going the next step, buying a magazine, or doing a search for it on the Internet? It is not hard at all to find it. The question is are we allowed to?
As a wife (wives first, since I am a wife), will you get offended if you discover your husband surfing the web during his free time? Will you get insulted, hurt? Shocked? Is it wrong for a man to go searching and try to see what is out there? Remember, he is doing so in the privacy of his home (hopefully) and of course there is no touching as it is all computerized. Do you trust him enough to know that all that he is seeking is merely curiosity and he wants to satisfy that curiosity. Can you understand his needs? His desire? His fantasy?
As a husband how would you react if you caught your wife in the act of searching the web and looking? Looking at pictures and reading different things than she normally does, after all this is going beyond that steamy romance novel that is hidden so carefully under the mattress. Will you be shocked? Disgusted? Annoyed? Or will you jump right in and say two can play the same game, or, you can look but you cannot touch.
What is so wrong with us looking? Again, forget the moral issues on how women are portrayed. What is the deal with it anyway? Why are guys in general so into it?
I have another issue here. Men flirt all the time. Okay, granted it is not all men and it is not all the time, but yes, men do flirt. They like it. They enjoy it. They get a kick out of it. What would happen if the wife flirted? Now by flirting I am talking about flirting that does not lead to touching. Yes, the provocative dress, the batting the eyelashes, the soft tone…you know what I mean. The way she looks at you to get her way. So what happens if she decides to use that elsewhere? After all, you flirt as well. You can’t deny you didn’t give that lady who walked by a second glance, so why can’t she do so to the waiter who is serving her? Is it really a two way street? Are both wrong or is one right and one wrong?
Plenty of people flirt. It all depends on how you interpret flirt. If by giving attention to someone flirting, then we do this all the time without realizing it. Sometimes we do realize what we are doing. But if you are talking about a conscientious flirting, it happens more often than you think. You probably do it as well with out realizing how often.
So my question here is about flirting and porn. Are they wrong? Is one more allowed than the other? Are we just allowed to do it, but our spouse is not? How far can we go without getting ourselves into trouble? How far have you gone? Will you lose respect for your spouse if you find porn on your computer? Will you want to leave your marriage if your spouse is looking at some porn? Will you confront your spouse or assume what you think is the right answer? Have you looked at porn or flirted? How does it feel?
I honestly do not think that looking at porn is that bad. Again, I am not talking about halachos and tzinius here. If a guy wants to, why not? And the wife? Is it really wrong for her to look at it? Who knows, it can help them in the bedroom! As for flirting. That is always dangerous. It can lead to steps further than you imagine without even thinking about it. Flirting is dangerous because you are dealing with another person. There is contact. There is talking. Porn is just looking without touching. But, if flirting is simple and it is not so involved, by all means, flirt away to get that free cup of coffee. But remember it works both ways. If you flirt, your spouse/girl/boy friend is allowed too as well.
posted by BasTorah @ 10:00 PM
31 Comments:
Bassy, Guess who? i'm still digesting the thoughts of the day but in regard to flirting and porn, i would love to flirt with a porn star. there is a double standard in regard to these issues. however, each of us has to define our level of tollerence as to how far we will go into watching or looking at internet porn or dvds. next issue, most frum men might not look or even flirt with other women. as far as flirting goes what are the circumstances? is it a friend or waitress? is it a neighbor who happens to be very close with her next door neighbor and idle chat leads to flirting and then to an affair? does a spouse feel insecure when their partner looks at theses things. if my spouse could do some of the things i see in emails i get, i would never leave the house. there are times that my spouse is with me when i flirt. my spouse also points out things to me to get me going. it all boils down to the relationship couples have and how insecure they are or are not. as far as porn helping in the bedroom, just make sure you pay more attention to your partner than the tv.
I believe that when someone looks at porn and not at their spouse, it shows a lack of respect and appreciation of their respective spouse's beauty. Enjoy your spouse, not the porn star(s).
I've been reading many blogs of frum married men cheating on their wives. Is this really so common? Am I so naive to have thought this is a rare thing in our communities? Or is it rare, and I've chanced upon the few that do? I hope its the latter, though I doubt it. When I got married, I looked at my wife, and knew I would never cheat or do anything to hurt her. Does everyone think like that at first, and then change, or are people already looking around to see whats out there under the chuppa?? In regards to flirting and porn, it depends on what extreme they are taken. Porn can be used to learn, its a lot easier then asking people what moves they use!! Also, if you watch it with your spouse it can add a little spice. But to sit alone and watch porn to get off should be seen as a warning signal. Whats missing that you need this? If you need the porn, you need to do something to save your relationship before it completely sinks. In terms of flirting, there really isnt any positive gains from flirting. It can be used to boost your ego, to see if you still have "it", how long you can keep them interested, but whats the point? Flirting is a very dangerous game, each step the one person makes, the other has to match or raise. In trying not to lose the game, you can lose much much more.
This is absolutely prohibited, there is nothing to talk about.
Here are some of the sources (my translation):
Berachos 24a
אמר רבי יצחק: טפח באשה ערוה. למאי? אילימא לאסתכולי בה - והא אמר רב ששת: למה מנה הכתוב תכשיטין שבחוץ עם תכשיטין שבפנים - לומר לך: כל המסתכל באצבע קטנה של אשה כאילו מסתכל במקום התורף!
R' Yitzchak said an exposed area equaling a fist on a woman is like her genitalia. For what purpose? If it is to look at her R' Sheshes said ... anyone who looks at the small finger of a woman is like looking at her genitalia
We see that a man is prohibited from looking at any part of a woman for his enjoyment even her pinky.
The Rambam brings this as halacha in Hilchos Issurei Biah Chapter 21 halacha 2-3
אסור לאדם לקרוץ בידיו וברגליו או לרמוז בעיניו, לאחת מן העריות; וכן לשחק עימה, או להקל ראש. ואפילו להריח בשמים שעליה, או להביט ביופייה--אסור; ומכין המתכוון לדבר זה, מכת מרדות. והמסתכל אפילו באצבע קטנה של אישה, ונתכוון ליהנות--כמי שנסתכל במקום התורף; ואפילו לשמוע קול הערווה, או לראות שיערה--אסור.
ג וכל הדברים האלו, אסורין בחייבי לאוין.
A man is not allowed to signal with his hands, feet, or eyes, to any woman who is prohibited to him, he also may not be light headed with her. Even to smell her perfume or look at her beauty is prohibited, a person who does so is whipped. Someone who looks at even the little finger of woman with the intention of getting enjoyment, is like looking at her genitalia ...
All of these things are prohibited by the torah.
This is all quoted by the shulchan aruch in Even Haezer Siman 21.
I don't meant to be insulting, but this is basic halacha. This shows just how corrupted we are by our exposure to modern society when people can think that there is even a question about this. This is where the Charedi world with it's separation from popular culture shows it's virtues.
stillruleall of course cheating happens but yes it's still rare, and those who cheat feel so guilty inside that they feel they most talk about it and vent about it, that's why you hear about it.
Flirting in general is not healthy, not for a man and not for a women, all adulterous affairs started with a tiny flirt, so if you don't wanna wrack your marriage and stay committed, stay away from flirting, because you never know how the other person will respond to your flirtations, and it might be too late.
Foncusedyid:
Who cares if my husband knows or not? Maybe he is reading this and signs it, with or without knowing that it is his wife! (all you married med, be careful, I can be your wife)
TheKvetcher:
Don't tell me you never eyed a pretty lady walk by you? Why can't you watch the porn with your wife to get ideas?
En: You can't enjoy both?
StillRule:
Dunno what the other blogs are about. Some are real. Some are not. But those that are not have obviously been thought about, and leaves many bloggers with big imaginations.
Bluke:
Forget halacha. I said that already. But if that is the case we are all wrong and all are sinners. Do not tell me you have not see a pretty lady walk by, or smelled her perfume in an elevator.
Shlomy:
Have you never flirted? Flirting is done all the time. Sometimes without even realizing it.
Callie:
Thank you for agreeing with me. I still do not see some flirting as evil. You can flirt with the waiter or your smile to the bussboy means something to him and not to you.
Lola:
Welcome to blogger land. My blog is to talk about what most wont talk about but thinks about. Evidently, porn is a bigger issue than you think. I really started this to find out what the reaction would be if you found your spouse looking at porn without your knowledge.
Flirting is not as dangerous as you assume it is. Most people, who deal with members of the opposite gender, flirt daily without even realizing it. It can be to the FedEx guy who drops off your package. A big smile to the waiter and talking to him. A compliment to someone.
Men flirt with females all the time. We know when someone is trying to hit on us and sometimes we will be disgusted and others we might play along with it and laugh at it.
Ladies flirt too. We can flirt with the waiter or with the man selling us something so we can get the price lowered. It is flirting. It doesn't always lead to intimacy.
know yourself and your boundaries.
Who ever said about getting yourself off with porn? I already discussed that topic, and we came to the conclusion that that was assur. So what happens if you are looking at porn or what have you and you don't "get off" the way you assume.
Never assume what I am talking about.
You wrote Are we ever allowed to look, or is that going beyond our religion? It sounds to me that you are not sure if it is prohibited. Well let me tell you that it is absolutely 100% prohibited.
A religious person has to start off with the presumption that they will keep what the halacha says. Everyone sins, but if you rationalize it away beforehand you have no chance of not sinning and that is exactly what you are doing. You write I am asking this in regards to what we see that is not hidden. We see ads and billboards that are right in front of us. Scantly clothed, provocative pose, right in middle of time square. You can’t miss it, unless of course your eyes are closed. You see T.V commercials playing all the time, and in the movies, a rated R movie can get you a couple in bed undressed and very busy. So it is not like we do not see it. Who said that you can watch TV, R-Rated movies etc.?
This is exactly why in the charedi world people don't have TV's, don't go to movies, don't have internet, don't read secular magazines and newspapers, and try to live in their own separate communities. While this approach has it's problems, your approach is at least as problematic if not worse and is causing people like you to compromise on basic halachas.
You are right, I did mention religion, and it was due to my miscommunication via blog. I lost my train of thought in that blog and was trying to get it right, but didn't really read it over....
What I really want to know is how bad is it if you catch your spouse? have you ever done so? how did it feel? and is there really a double standard here? Are men more allowed to then women?
I honestly do not think that looking at porn is that bad. Again, I am not talking about halachos and tzinius here. If a guy wants to, why not?
How can you separate halacha and tznius from your attitude to it? If the Torah prohibits something then how can you say that it isn't so bad? Do you think you know better then God? Do you understand that when you die you will have to account for every action?
Why is it that people who would never dream of getting a non-kosher burger in McDonalds because the Torah prohibits it, can somehow try to justify these kinds of things?
ok, flirting, done over the phone to get a reduction, fine, big deal it's also called feminine haggling. Big smile at a waiter? That's called being friendly. Full on shameless flirting is between you and hubbers. Anything else is feminine wiles and haggling or being polite, Don't read into it, because that's all it is.
Porn - Hopefully men would have got porn out of their system sometime round mid puberty. We're not naive, we know men look, that's what makes them men. They're cavemen at heart. Hubby calls it "just looking at the scenery" eg he wouldn't like working with a seriously ugly woman as it spoils the scenery.....(yeah, i know whatever.) As long as he knows to say, "darling, whadya care, they don't hold a candle to you" and in the case of an advertisment -"She's all plastic and you can tell she's airbrushed, who are they fooling, you're far better looking!" Then he won't get a book thrown at him. If he has ever said a jewsih girl was good looking, he says it like he's stating a fact and tries to set her up with his friends/cousin .....
bassy were you watching porn when you wrote this? is that why you lost your train of thought? and yes i look at hot chicks all day. i've seen more tattoos lately i could open a museam of body art in my mind. to everyone else if you don't want to look don't
i you can get your spouses to watch with you thats fantastic. it shows you got an imagination. as far as halacha goes if it keeps the two of you happy in the bedroom and you don't have to look for it elsewhere than watch till you cant get it up any more. for you pudes out there go to www.clubjenna.com you never know what you find out about your self or your spouse.
Bluke:
It really depends on who you ask. I thought you can do what you want with your wife..so then, why is porn not allowed? It is all on how you translate what you wrote....
KISCH:
It is either yes or no. Yes you can flirt with limitations (and I said no touching) or you cannot. Based on the rabbanim reading this site, you are not even allowed to look at another person lest you shall sin. Sorry it doesn't work that way. We do not live under a rock with blinders. Maybe we should. But we do not.
TheKvetch:
Porn while writting this? What ever do you mean? LOL. Don;t you know porn is assur>
tzvi5
I think we are all going to hell now.
is there porn in hell?
other wise i'll bring some with me.
any of you guys ever hook up the video camera at home and make home movies?
I agree emphatically with this statment of yours: A person has to know their limits! Maybe its a bit dangerous to flirt, but you must know where the borderline is..
t really depends on who you ask. I thought you can do what you want with your wife..so then, why is porn not allowed? It is all on how you translate what you wrote....
No, no, no!!!!
Thr torah unequivocally prohibits porn. You cannot find a single opinion anywhere that will permit it, period. This is the torah way, somethings are permitted some are prohibited. Your wife is permitted, porn is not.
SERPICO: "That's why it's important to marry someone who understands your yetzer horah and vice versa"...and yes, your not paying attention. the problem in all the blogs out there is that know one knows who they are married to. so rather then ask them about their yetzer hora and risk stepping over a line about what one may want from their partner they look for it elsewhere. either in cyberspace. or flirting with a co worker. if it leads to infedelity it's a big problem. in one of my earlier posts i suggested that when couple go on their shidduch dates they should do the deed just to see if they are compatible. do you knoe the song called the PINA COLADA song listen to the words closely. communication is very important. there too much a lack of it in the love and sex department.
LOLA: been there done that too. you be suprised what kind of girls are out there. or at least they were in my day. it seems that sex is an escape for all problems. as for the porn industry it is one of the biggest and growing. are we all depressed. just think if you could hook up with a girl whose father owned a liquor company it would be heaven on earth.
so lola: the question now is. is it worse to watch 2 women or a man and a woman?
Bas Torah- You cannot enjoy both porn and your spouse. It is mentally impossible. You will have only one image in your mind when you cum. And that remains to be the newest image of some star you just saw and gave you pleasure, not, your boring, ugly spouse. Maybe not true for a woman, who might be able to focus on her husband, but certainly for a man.If you don't feel a bit jealous or depressed at the fact your husband can't get pleasure from your body or looks then you are not a true woman. Face the facts of nature. A man who is pleasured at home doesn't need to look elsewhere. If he does look eleswhere, even with the consent of his wife, he is not being faithful to the concept of marriage, which should make a normal person guilty.
EN before you go off judging bas torah, i like to call her bassy, have you ever watched porn. have you watched it with your spouse. have you watched it while doing your spouse? if yes who did you think of? who does your spouse think of. unless you tried it don't judge. it may help some cope with certain issues. if people can use it as a tool to spice up their lives and prevent them from infedelity than so be it. if you need a list of movies or where to find them let me know.
Sometimes we just don't know what we have right there at home - and we go looking for the very same thing that we are ignoring in-house!
Pina Colada Lyrics
I was tired of my lady
We'd been together too long
Like a worn-out recording
Of a favorite song
So while she lay there sleeping
I read the paper in bed
And in the personal columns
There was this letter I read
"If you like Pina Coladas
And getting caught in the rain
If you're not into yoga
If you have half a brain
If you'd like making love at midnight
In the dunes on the Cape
Then I'm the love that you've looked for
Write to me and escape."
I didn't think about my lady
I know that sounds kind of mean
But me and my old lady
Have fallen into the same old dull routine
So I wrote to the paper
Took out a personal ad
And though I'm nobody's poet
I thought it wasn't half bad
"Yes I like Pina Coladas
And getting caught in the rain
I'm not much into health food
I am into champagne
I've got to meet you by tomorrow noon
And cut through all this red-tape
At a bar called O'Malley's
Where we'll plan our escape."
So I waited with high hopes
And she walked in the place
I knew her smile in an instant
I knew the curve of her face
It was my own lovely lady
And she said, "Oh it's you."
Then we laughed for a moment
And I said, "I never knew."
That you like Pina Coladas
Getting caught in the rain
And the feel of the ocean
And the taste of champagne
If you'd like making love at midnight
In the dunes of the Cape
You're the lady I've looked for
Come with me and escape
i disagree i think the dumbest song was the one from the crash test dummies ":uhhuhh uhh uh"
To kvetcher- Thanks for your offer on where to find porn, but, Google does just fine. I've seen enough porn to last me a thousand lifetimes. I would take the butt ugliest girl (well, almost any, I'm human you know) to marry. Nothing can compare to the real thing. Porn is like staring at a wax image. Nothing can beat reality. It become a sorry state of affairs if you must resort to imaging. Use you mind to get a hard on, not, some fake model who is pretending on screen to love you. If a spouse is not beautiful enough to give you a hard on, use something else, there are plenty of toys out there, but don't insult your spouse by saying they aren't beautiful enough. That is just plain mean.
EN: DO you tell your palm it's beautiful. no one said that porn is a sub. for ones partner. maybe it's like a virtual threesome or foursome. maybe people want that. don't you have a wild side? don't you fantasize?
maybe people use it for learning new tricks. you look at it and say honey you wanna try this or that?
when you eventually find your intended,ask her what she really wants to do in bed.
I am honored to have the margarrita girl here. It seems that all my readers mention you and now to have you here...wow. thank you :-)
to I don't understand:
Finally someone understands the question at hand. Yay! How do we handle both worlds? God created all of us with the same feelings, needs and wants. Yet he gave us guidelines to follow. Remove the guilt, what would you do?
To bas Torah- on your last comment... Why would you give a sh*t on the theoretics of morality, IF you feel guilty when you do something wrong? (some people are just so dumb). Must be you don't feel guilty when you do something against the Torah. You know it or don't. Don't try to give excuses for what your Yeter Hara wants to do. If you heard it was wrong, WHY debate if it makes sense. There is no purpose to write your opinion if you do not want it to change something. Unless you are bored...then you can call me and I'll pleasure you.
Bas Torah.......Am I THAT popular?? I think you do pretty well for yourself. Thanks for the mention. I enjoy your post and am always looking for more.
You rule, girl!!
you all need to grow up and face your fears. to hitlers fault you don't want your wife to see there are real men out there. i know it's a SMALL problem but get over it. EN: no one said they are unsure of their relationships they just want to hear othe points of view. and to all the cheaters out there whats worse watching porn or screwing around on th side?
AND YES MARGARITA GIRL YOU ARE MORE POPULAR THAN THE HOME COMING QUEEN IN HIGH SCHOOL. noe if i can only find the remote i can finish my movie.
Bas Torah...
As I posted on Shloimy's blog...I repeat to you.
Better watch out....there's a new blogger out there, I think he was released too early from a max. security psych. center, and he's been hounding me on MY blog that I'm posting about my life, so be warned;
He might get on your case too - you know, posting about personal issues. I mean, I love it, I think this is a forum for venting, for gathering ideas and input to give us perspective on how the other side thinks. We can learn from everyone....we are all human here, but since he's probably not, he seems to object to everyone and everything except for his own brilliance.
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