A Letter From a Reader to the Readers
Dear Bas Torah and her readers,
I just finished reading three
fantastic threads on this blog; "Nidda Time", "Is it wrong," and
"Help Ourselves". I would like to be part of this discussion
because, well, these issues represent the most important challenges
of my life right now and I've got nobody with whom to share my
thoughts.
Male Masturbation and Pornography
First of all, its obvious that both are assur. It's a total waste
of time to discuss this from the point of view of the sources. Its
Assur. C'mon. Stop kidding yourselves. But is it good enough to say
its assur and that's it? No. Because the urge to view pornography
and to masturbate is so strong that nebuch many men who belive in
the Torah and accept the authority of Halacha, are still unable to
resist the urge. They say things like, "Its not as bad as having an
affair" or, "it's just out of curiosity," or, "its not real". In
fact, dear Bas Torah, I suspect that your husband or her friend's
husband or whoever inspired your question, has said something like
that when he was "caught at it" But these are just lame attempts of
the addict mind to reconcile the fact that he is acting out in this
way with the idea that he is a serious torah observant Jew.
So saying, its assur is true. But its meaningless because somehow
the emotional needs you are meeting by viewing porn and/or
masturbating are just more compelling than your emunah. That's not
to say that your emuna is not strong. But there's strong and
there's STRONG.
How do I know so much about this? Cause I've been there. I'm a
Torah observant Jew with a beautiful wife and children and also a
recovering porn and masturbation addict. Here's why its wrong to
look:
a)
Looking at porn, or even the little finger of an actual woman, if
its to get pleasure, medicates away desires that should be applied
to and hopefully resolved in real relationships and other
productive endeavors. These deep human needs that draw a man to a
pretty face, a nice smile, a shapely figure provide the driving
force for his passionate love for his wife. So when you look, the
object of your momentary desire is "getting all your best" and your
marriage and everything else important to you is losing out.
b)
Looking at a beautiful woman to get pleasure is immoral towards
that woman because you are objectifying her.That's a form of
exploitation. If she knew you were doing it, she would feel
uncomfortable
c)
Attraction to porn, especially when accompanied by masturbation,can
easily, especially today with the availability of internet, lead to
obsessive habitual porn use that takes up so much time, energy and
possibly money, that it can ruin your parnassa, career, and any
other accomplishment.
Flirting.
Obviously flirting is bad. However, Not every smile and every hello
is a flirt. Connecting with another person and making them feel
good is an important thing to do. Don't let the potential for
inappropriate feelings be a demonic force that corrupts every
relationship and isolates peoples from one another.
Having said that, I'll also say that tzniut is important.
Niddah Separation.
Niddah separation was always hard for me, even when I was "taking
care of myself" quite liberally. But when I came out of the
masturbation addiction cold-turkey and went from around 20-50
orgasms a month to 2-5 my nuts pretty much cracked open from the
pressure. I really started resenting the 7 clean days and became
convinced that Chazal's acceptance of the "minhag bnot yisrael" to
keep 7 clean days on any blood without even attempting to
distinguish between Nidda and Zava was a colossal mistake. Did they
realize that they were condemning so many men (me at least) to a
limit of 2-5 times per month?
But I think I'm over that rant. Now, I say: Keep that arousal. Its
your power. Keep that erection. It's your passion. Don't waste your
seed. Keep those nuts swollen with "seed", and your heart will stay
swollen with love and undescribable passion for your wife.
Male Celibacy possible?
Yes. Its all in the mind. My case proves that a person can do with
very little "outlet" (As if a woman were an "outlet"). And I know
of other recovering addicts,(Gentiles noch!) who have gone for over
a year without any sex or masturbation of any kind and they are
perfectly healthy. The body doesn't need it if the mind doesn't
convince the body that it does. So I think that tzvi5got it wrong
when he wrote that
"Anyone who can go 2 weeks a month, or 2 months after childbirth
with out masturbation., is a Tzaddik of a calibre, that I cant even
comprehend"
Its seems mind boggling I know. But that's because you are
brainwashed into thinking that your body needs it. Once you realize
the truth you'll understand that its not so hard and recognize that
even a gentile can do it.
shlomohamelech said...
"I have NEVER masturbated,"
It's great the you said this. It helps.
You, Dear Bastorah, asked,
"Can a man look at a sexy female, or a magazine or what have you,
without getting into trouble with his wife?"
This hurts so many women so much. Here's a link you should follow
if you're ready to cry...
http//lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=Partners
the passage I identified with most was where talmid commented on
"Take Care of Our self?"
"My main conclusion is that I cannot see that we have a right to
expect to be in a position to be able to enjoy sex. In the same way
as we cannot expect to have excellent sex every time we make love,
or indeed to be healthy or to live to 120 or to be rich or to have
healthy clever children and all the other aspects of life that we
all desire. If Hashem has decided that you won't be in a situation
where you can have sex whenever you want there is a reason behind
it. Hashem knows that there is a Halachah against (certainly for
men) masturbation. However difficult the Halacha is, we as Jews
only exist today because we have continued to keep Halacha. And
also most of our Halachot help make us into decent people and help
us build warm and cohesive family units."
That was really well said. If I get really passionate lovemaking
even only once a month, what right do I have to complain? It could
be much worse and for many people it is much worse. And if it were
worse, I would be expected to deal with that and accept it.
Also, it helps to compare yourself to Nice Jewish Girl:
http://www.shomernegiah.blogspot.com/. If you get to make love even
once a year, you can count your blessings.
Thanks holy brothers and sisters for listening.. I'm hoping to hear
your comments.
Sincerely,RCA
fantastic threads on this blog; "Nidda Time", "Is it wrong," and
"Help Ourselves". I would like to be part of this discussion
because, well, these issues represent the most important challenges
of my life right now and I've got nobody with whom to share my
thoughts.
Male Masturbation and Pornography
First of all, its obvious that both are assur. It's a total waste
of time to discuss this from the point of view of the sources. Its
Assur. C'mon. Stop kidding yourselves. But is it good enough to say
its assur and that's it? No. Because the urge to view pornography
and to masturbate is so strong that nebuch many men who belive in
the Torah and accept the authority of Halacha, are still unable to
resist the urge. They say things like, "Its not as bad as having an
affair" or, "it's just out of curiosity," or, "its not real". In
fact, dear Bas Torah, I suspect that your husband or her friend's
husband or whoever inspired your question, has said something like
that when he was "caught at it" But these are just lame attempts of
the addict mind to reconcile the fact that he is acting out in this
way with the idea that he is a serious torah observant Jew.
So saying, its assur is true. But its meaningless because somehow
the emotional needs you are meeting by viewing porn and/or
masturbating are just more compelling than your emunah. That's not
to say that your emuna is not strong. But there's strong and
there's STRONG.
How do I know so much about this? Cause I've been there. I'm a
Torah observant Jew with a beautiful wife and children and also a
recovering porn and masturbation addict. Here's why its wrong to
look:
a)
Looking at porn, or even the little finger of an actual woman, if
its to get pleasure, medicates away desires that should be applied
to and hopefully resolved in real relationships and other
productive endeavors. These deep human needs that draw a man to a
pretty face, a nice smile, a shapely figure provide the driving
force for his passionate love for his wife. So when you look, the
object of your momentary desire is "getting all your best" and your
marriage and everything else important to you is losing out.
b)
Looking at a beautiful woman to get pleasure is immoral towards
that woman because you are objectifying her.That's a form of
exploitation. If she knew you were doing it, she would feel
uncomfortable
c)
Attraction to porn, especially when accompanied by masturbation,can
easily, especially today with the availability of internet, lead to
obsessive habitual porn use that takes up so much time, energy and
possibly money, that it can ruin your parnassa, career, and any
other accomplishment.
Flirting.
Obviously flirting is bad. However, Not every smile and every hello
is a flirt. Connecting with another person and making them feel
good is an important thing to do. Don't let the potential for
inappropriate feelings be a demonic force that corrupts every
relationship and isolates peoples from one another.
Having said that, I'll also say that tzniut is important.
Niddah Separation.
Niddah separation was always hard for me, even when I was "taking
care of myself" quite liberally. But when I came out of the
masturbation addiction cold-turkey and went from around 20-50
orgasms a month to 2-5 my nuts pretty much cracked open from the
pressure. I really started resenting the 7 clean days and became
convinced that Chazal's acceptance of the "minhag bnot yisrael" to
keep 7 clean days on any blood without even attempting to
distinguish between Nidda and Zava was a colossal mistake. Did they
realize that they were condemning so many men (me at least) to a
limit of 2-5 times per month?
But I think I'm over that rant. Now, I say: Keep that arousal. Its
your power. Keep that erection. It's your passion. Don't waste your
seed. Keep those nuts swollen with "seed", and your heart will stay
swollen with love and undescribable passion for your wife.
Male Celibacy possible?
Yes. Its all in the mind. My case proves that a person can do with
very little "outlet" (As if a woman were an "outlet"). And I know
of other recovering addicts,(Gentiles noch!) who have gone for over
a year without any sex or masturbation of any kind and they are
perfectly healthy. The body doesn't need it if the mind doesn't
convince the body that it does. So I think that tzvi5got it wrong
when he wrote that
"Anyone who can go 2 weeks a month, or 2 months after childbirth
with out masturbation., is a Tzaddik of a calibre, that I cant even
comprehend"
Its seems mind boggling I know. But that's because you are
brainwashed into thinking that your body needs it. Once you realize
the truth you'll understand that its not so hard and recognize that
even a gentile can do it.
shlomohamelech said...
"I have NEVER masturbated,"
It's great the you said this. It helps.
You, Dear Bastorah, asked,
"Can a man look at a sexy female, or a magazine or what have you,
without getting into trouble with his wife?"
This hurts so many women so much. Here's a link you should follow
if you're ready to cry...
http//lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=Partners
the passage I identified with most was where talmid commented on
"Take Care of Our self?"
"My main conclusion is that I cannot see that we have a right to
expect to be in a position to be able to enjoy sex. In the same way
as we cannot expect to have excellent sex every time we make love,
or indeed to be healthy or to live to 120 or to be rich or to have
healthy clever children and all the other aspects of life that we
all desire. If Hashem has decided that you won't be in a situation
where you can have sex whenever you want there is a reason behind
it. Hashem knows that there is a Halachah against (certainly for
men) masturbation. However difficult the Halacha is, we as Jews
only exist today because we have continued to keep Halacha. And
also most of our Halachot help make us into decent people and help
us build warm and cohesive family units."
That was really well said. If I get really passionate lovemaking
even only once a month, what right do I have to complain? It could
be much worse and for many people it is much worse. And if it were
worse, I would be expected to deal with that and accept it.
Also, it helps to compare yourself to Nice Jewish Girl:
http://www.shomernegiah.blogspot.com/. If you get to make love even
once a year, you can count your blessings.
Thanks holy brothers and sisters for listening.. I'm hoping to hear
your comments.
Sincerely,RCA
posted by BasTorah @ 4:01 PM
19 Comments:
I'm a
Torah observant Jew with a beautiful wife and children and also a
recovering porn and masturbation addict.
recovering porn and masturbation addict
Glad to read that you have good things in your life, but I am here to tell you that life is not black and white. It doesn't always have to be an either/or proposition.
Your logic is flawed.
Looking at a beautiful woman to get pleasure is immoral towards
that woman because you are objectifying her.That's a form of
exploitation. If she knew you were doing it, she would feel
uncomfortable
That is not necessarily true. She could be appreciative of the attention. It doesn't have to be a situation in where she feels like an object.
We all make our choices in life, but my opinion is that when you wrap yourself in such a tight little cocoon in which you cannot imagine interacting with the other sex for fear of impure desire you create more problems than you solve.
well the kvetcher can control himself so the kvetcher is a tzaddik
Jack's Shack,
I guess you don't believe in Chazal and the shulchan aruch. The Shulchan Aruch in Even Haezer Siman 21 states צריך אדם להתרחק מין הנשים מאד מאד a man must distance himself from women very much. This is based on many gemaras.
The gemara in Berachos 24a states
כל המסתכל באצבע קטנה של אשה כאילו מסתכל בבית התורפה
Anyone who looks at a woman's little finger is like looking at her genitalia
In other words al pi halacha you are not allowed to look at any part of any woman for pleasure, so it is absolutely irrelevant whether she appreciates it or not, it is prohibited al pi halacha in any case.
The Rambam writes at the end of hilchos issurei biah
אין לך דבר בכל התורה כולה שהוא קשה לרוב העם, אלא לפרוש מן העריות והביאות האסורות
there is nothing in the Torah that is harder for most people then staying away from illegal sexual relations
Then Rambame also says over there
אבר קטן יש באדם, משביעו רעב, מרעיבו שבע
A man has a small organ, if you try to satisfy it it is hungry, if you starve it is satisfied
This is an old battle but a winnable one. At the end the Rambam writes
תרה מכל זאת אמרו, יפנה עצמו ומחשבתו לדברי תורה, וירחיב דעתו בחכמה--שאין מחשבת עריות מתגברת, אלא בלב פנוי מן החכמה
Above all, a person should concentrate on learning torah and
chochma, because thoughts of arayos cannot win out unless a person's heart is away from torah
Anonyone, if you can not trust your husband then you have to decide whether it is worth living with him even if he does look at that. I would say if you cant trust your husband then you should get rid of him. But if his only sin is looking at porn even if he does it all the time if hes a loving husband anyways. does it really matter that much?
Doc, whatever you are writing is just a repeat of what the reform movement have argued 200 years ago. You can even be described better as a Conservative.
To say that today people cannot comply with the strict rules, who are you to speak for everyone? You can only speak for yourself.
I don't have to dismiss your argument. I can just say that you will end up the same as the Reform and Conservatives.
Why argue when I can just point to history? Good luck. "History repeats itself."
sahm (shame), what a statement. I cannot agree or disagree with that. I have to research the facts first.
Just a side point. The fact that there is more than a handful of those blogs does not mean anything.
Almost every adult today has access to a computer and the internet, today, including Orthodox people. Computer and internet to me means access to information. But, I don't see the droves.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Me, You are distorting Jewish history or you just picke up a book and read from it. I relly on my history as it is written in the Talmud and Tanach.
Judaism in detail evolved, however, in principal it is the same. And Orthodox Judaism follows the same principals and that is why it will continue. On the other hand, Reform, Conservative and the other forms changed the principals and thererfore they have no hope. And I am not going into a duscussion of the difference in principal or detail.
"'At the time of of the 1st Beit Hamikdash', most of the Jews continued to worship and sacrifice to Baal, Ashtoreth and other idols." The Tanach is very clear about this. It was not always and it was not everybody. It depends who was the king, judge, or high priest. Those Jews who worshiped those avodah zoros were sinners. This was not Judaism, it is the same as those who sin today doing other sins. At that time the yetzer horah for avodah zoro was very strong. When the Second Temple was built Ezra and, I believe, the Anshey Knesess Hagdolah killed that Yetzer Horah.
"It's only at the time and after the 2nd Beit Hamikdash that people in villages (as opposed to Jerusalem) began building and using their own mikvaot - it was anomalous until then. That also coincided with the widespread building of shules." Where did you study Jewish history? Mikvaot and Shuls were built even in the Midbar. Where did the Jews study Torah. Until around the time of the distruction of the second temple the oral Torah was not permitted to be written, everybody sutied it orally. Where did these people study. At the time of the First temple when Ychezkiyuhi was the king, Sancherev came to conquer Yerushalyim. As Yerushalyim was surounded all the Jews went into shul to pray and study Torah. Yechezkiyuhi hung a sword at the door and announced that whoever leaves Shul will be killed with the sword. The Talmud says "בדקו 'מדן ועד באר שבע' ולא מצאו עם הארץ 'מגבת ועד אנטיפרס' ולא מצאו תינוק ותינוקת איש ואשה שלא היו בקיאין בהלכות טומאה וטהרה ועל אותו הדור הוא אומר..."
"How can you say that the Reform and even the conservative are bad?" Look at how history treated them. I have no furhter comment.
Me, please study some Jewish history before you write.
Tzvi, are you married? It doesn't seem so. It is almost impossible for a healthy human being to do it every night even only for two weeks a month.
Yes, if you want to be selfish and just have an orgasm, in other words use your wife as a toilet, then you can do it. These people are usually the ones who will masturbate. However, my wife is not a toilet. Therefore, when I do it I want to be there mentally and physically so we both enjoy it. This is impossible to do every night and not even every other night.
OK I need to comment on the original
comment posted by Bas Torah.
I am 45 years old, frum, married over 2o years.
When I was a bochur, I masterbated often, but once I got married I cannot recall doing it more than twice or three times in all these years. Yes I am horny {as I read all these blogs and comments} but I have learned to control myself. I often feel the urge but I try to control myself, and I am successful.
Is this the norm or do frum men during the niddah weeks need to please themselves regulary? My wife does satisfy me and I just wait it out untill Mikvah night. What does the blog oleim say ??
in 20 years America will have old age homes and chedarim (and I suppose programs for kids at Risk!) There won't BE any young nonfrum Jews....it's sad, but true
Har har, they were saying that 20 years ago, and we're still doing fine. By the way, we recently honored the high school graduates at our shul. Lots of young, non-frum kids, and in the 15 years I've been a member, only one young man has "frummed out" and bcome an Orthodox BT. And we have lots of kids who attend Orthodox day schools.
Remember, 200 years ago (approximately) all they had was Orthodox Juduasm, and look what happened. Once it becomes truly hard to be frum again, once the economy tanks, and we return to the conditions of the 1880's where people need to work on Saturday if they exprect to feed their families, one anti-semitism breaks out again (not mouth-foaming nazi type, either, just the good old circa 1900 style genteel version), all your children with the yeshiva education will drop it like a rock. It happened to my granfather, it will happen to your grandchildren.
Oh, and we've picked up several members who used to be orthodox, the main rason they dropped it was becuase of the uncecessary (even by Orthodox standards) restrictions on women. In other wordsm they were so ticked off at the rightward tilt, that they were willing to accept the whole Conservative egalitarian schtick becuase they have no alternatives in Orthodoxy.
As for Niddah, one might argue on general grounds that the concept of a period of seperation might have some benefit to marital relations. But the way it's been interpreted by the Rabbis is excessive -- first the period of Niddah is far longer than it needs to be, then, if there's any question about hwether it's over, the procedure is demeaning to women. I mean, having a rabbi inspect a womand undergarments, that's not the Holy Torah, given by the God of Truth and Justice, that's a perversion!
Chana
Are you serious ??
As for the Orthod Oisvafs that fried out cuz they hate their parents, etc. Or Whatever it was....yes, you'll always have a percentage going the other way....
My grandfather, and the vast majority of k'lal Yisra'el, who "frei'd out" 100 years ago didn't do so because the "hated their parents." And my grandfather, at least, didn't fo it becuase he wanted to assimilate and become a goy or had self hate. He left Orthodoxy because he realized that its claims were bogus.
Hope you has a happy Shavu'os. It's a fun myth, as long as you don't take it literally.
And as for the Apikoris...PuHLEEZE>..Dude, Jsirpicco grew up in the Conservative movement, my inlaws are active Conservative, and I know what goes on there...so all the SPIN in the world won't help the actual numbers, demographics, etc...yeah yeah yeah, there are some "Temples" that are active...but you can't tell me the movement is growing, even with the Conservative converts...joining...
If you're so knowledgable about the Conservative movement, then you'd know that the vast majority of the congregations don't call themselves "Temples." You're confusing them with the Reform, and if the Conservative are losing members, it's more likely to be the Reform.
But no matter, Orthodoxy has grown so right-wing and fundamentalist that it's only attractive to people with obsessive-compulsive disorder or those with mild autistic symptoms who benefit from the black and white worldview and the security that comes from detailed instructions on how to live one's life.
Orthodoxy, especially right-wing black-hatter hareidi Orthodoxy, is not the future of Judaism.
This is from RCA, the guy who wrote the letter to me!
thekvetcher said...
"well the kvetcher can control himself so the kvetcher is a
tzaddik"
Well Kvetcher. You're actually a normal guy. And its important for
addicts to know that normal guys like you exist. When my therapist
told me how normal people deal with arousal it helped me a lot. I
guess people just look at themselves and say, "well. If when I get
aroused I go into an obsessive spiral of fantasy and searches for
more stimulation wherever I can find it and finally masturbate and
then chozer chalilia, then everyone else must experience it in the
same way."
But its not true. They just don't have this experience. Call it
self control. Call it inhibition. Call it defense mechanisms. Call
it boundaries. Most people's minds don't work the way mine does and
especially not the way it did. Accepting this is one of the first
steps towards the development of a new way of thinking, which is
the main work of a recovering addict, in my experience
As far as the discussion about heresy goes, that's not so
interesting to me. I'm committed to keeping the halacha and was
even when I was breaking it with my addictive behaviors. People
sometimes need help living their lives the way they want. People
have difficulties living according to Halacha. I certainly do. That
means I need to get help with this not look for another way to
live.
By confronting your problems you grow from within the Halachic
framework and because of it. I have new insights about love,
friendship, intimacy and have become enriched in so many ways
because of the difficulties and conflicts that I have dealt with.
If I had an easy way out, these great things would never have
happened.
Me, maybe Jews never lived in Israel 2800 years ago? You don't find many houses from that time throughout Israel.
The point, the fact that you don't find actual structures that would siginfy a Shul does not mean that they did not have shules.
What would you call a Shull in someones basement? Do you really believe that the Jews at that time didn't have a place where to congregate. This is non sense. The fact that you did a paper on this does not mean a thing.
I have also done a paper in college. Although it was not for a post graduate degree, I know what it means doing a paper and coming up with some non sense.
As for "how history treated them" it was ment in terms of Judaism and not anti semitism.
Tzvi and Chana, this is what shlomy wrote on another post:
"Shlomy said...
My experience has always been that the Man is always hornier and is always the one to initiate,
while the first week after mikvah we do it more often 3 times is the norm that week the second week is a bit slower but for sure we do try to get another day in before the expected niddah dates but..."
Not that I need him to support me. But one of you said that I should contact him, I see that he has nothing to add other than that I know already.
tzvi, you did not say if you are married. I say again it seems that you are not. If you show me somone who does it every night for two weeks I will show you a liar.
You are such a nice person. It was so nice of you to allow a emailer to post a whole email through you to your website.
Post a Comment
Let's hear your thoughts<< Home